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It occurred to me on a rewatch some months ago that I’ve never seen hard AF cinta look as close to crying as when she’s walking away from that room.

The last time we see the hostages is them witnessing the shuttle leave without her on it. They saw her face, the face of the only person on the heist who had to stay on the planet.

I think she left no witnesses.

When I say not SA, I’m talking about the self censorship not that it wasn’t sexual assault

Sexual Violence is a heavy topic, and I understand why people are cautious around it but you can’t have an open and honest discussion about it if you can’t even say the words

Edit: Discussion of this can bring up a lot of stuff, I’m currently in college to be a therapist. I’m not licensed yet but if anyone needs someone to listen, feel free to DM me.

Edit 2: please look at my reply to the first comment about algorithms before you comment that people do it to avoid being banned or having posts hidden

I have noticed that a lot of commenters wonder/complain about these scenes.And honestly it surprises me, as of the moment I watched them, they gave me a strong sense of what they were showing and what symbology they were playing with. Then I realised - the links I made where due to my own growing up behind the iron curtain. So let me explain.

The whole sequence with the Maya Pei Brigade, reminds a good deal of Che Guevarra's African campaign and Bolivian campaign. Both gross failures. (If you wonder, his diaries and additional books about some of his fighters, especially Tamara Bunke, (Guerilla Tania) were staple to read in my homeland). During the Bolivian campaign, Che faced troubles with the local communists, as well as increasing dissatisfaction from Moskow, who were not entirely happy with his take on world revolution. The aforementioned Tamara Bunke, joined him from East Germany, over much difficulties, as Che's campaign did not align with East Germany's foreign politics. And in the jungles of Bolivia they attempted a widely useless campaign, which got them killed - and once Che Guevarra was dead, the entire campaign more or less collapsed in on itself.

Now, what are the parallels outside of the jungle setting? 1. A charismatic rebel leader who build a movement. Maya Pei is exactly that, her brigade has decent numbers and is obviously led by her personality, if little else. 2. The group having issues with other groups who want the same thing (in the broad strokes) but do not trust one another. 3. ideological difference between those groups. (See Saw and his "all lost.") 4. The whole thing falls apart when the charismatic leader is killed. In Che's case the whole thing was already weakened, and the same goes for Maya, if I read what little we hear about that fight that killed her, right. In Bolivia it would take a few years until the next violent insurgency could form, and in SW Universe it will also take a bit for the rebel alliance to form.

So I think what Tony did here, is showing us a state of chaos that also existed in real revolutions here, and he tackles especially the problem of "world revolution". The problem of a revolution having to grow beyond a local into a global (or galaxy wide) setting. He takes inspirations from such conflicts (I think he also took inspiration from the international brigades in the Spanish Civil war) and shows us, that the will, and hope alone were not enough. That not everyone who joined the cause was automatically a soldier, or even reasonably good at it. Quite the contrary. I mentioned Tamara Bunke before, because she stupidly blew her cover, by making really really silly mistakes, which then led her to join armed insurgency instead of remaining an undercover operative.

Yes, those jungle rebels are idiots, they behave stupid. But all that held them together was Maya - and we see in a few small moments how Cassian is beginning to assert some influence on them. It shows Cassian's leadership potential and the state of the rebellion at this point in time. It rightfully appears a bit as a hopeless cause, and that should not be surprising at this point in history.

For all who now wonder - I do NOT condone the ideals of socialism, world revolution nor am I a Che fan. But his diaries, and related books were approved reading during my teenage years, and they were fairly recent books aboute a continent that might as well have been in another universe otherwise. So I read them, and I remembered when I saw the series. Watching these scenes, I really was strongly reminded, and I totally appreciate how Tony Gilroy shows us the humble, hopeless beginngs of what will one day be the rebel Alliance.

I was rewatching the first S2 episodes last night, this time with subtitles on, and I caught a small throwaway line from Perrin that I missed the first time around. While talking to Mon about her lover Tay, during the witty banter where they dance around who he's talking about, he drops the line, "Or have you all dropped him? That would explain a lot." This is skated over by Mon, but the bolded section highlights Perrin's character and eventual role in the story.

Perrin is shown many times standing and surveying the guests at the party. He's shown watching Luthen & Kleya like a hawk, watching Tay Kolma, watching Leida & Stekan...and at the very end, we're shown that he's taken notice of Mon crashing out. This line, this unprompted "you all", indicates that he knows there's a conspiracy taking place, even if he's not part of it. He knows Mon is outspoken against the Empire and hates cavorting with them. He also knows that Tay was not Mon's lover - remember, when Mon accused him of gambling in S1, this was to provide cover for money issues. Perrin would have known that the gambling story was bullshit if he had truly stopped gambling...so why bring this up in the middle of the deal with Davo and the reintroduction of Tay, if not to cover for something else?

That's why I think Perrin called Tay Mon's lover at the party on day 2. He's figured out that Mon is in league with Davo, who is in league with Luthen (whose shop Mon goes to all the time), and he's figured out that Tay's caught in their orbit. Because Tay crashed out on the first night, Perrin's figured out that Mon needs cover for his actions, and so he accuses her of being his lover not because he actually believes it, but because he knows something will need to be done about him. To what end, is less clear - I don't know that he expects Tay to be killed instead of just removed from the orbit, but regardless I think it will be shown when Mon flees Coruscant for the Rebellion that Perrin has been paying attention to her crusade and has been doing what he can to give the family (Leida in particular) a safe exit from Mon's activities. If Perrin and Leida are playing the part of a conservative bougie father daughter who are not on board with Mon's radicalism, then when she is hunted down, they have enough plausible deniability to remain safe.

tl;dr - Perrin's a good guy, looking out for his daughter while giving cover to his wife. He's figured out that a conspiracy is taking place, and he's figured out Tay is done for and needs to go.

The whole point of steering the online discussion to attempted rape is to engage people emotionally about a show that is an intellectually honest critique about America as the Empire. Sure it’s a bit of a caricature, but a lot of scenes and scenarios draw from American history.

Keep the discussion on track. Post more about economic repression, civil liberties, neo colonialism on Gorman, Astroturfing insurgencies, kafkaesque bureaucracy and prison slave labour.

Don’t let the meta become a distraction.

Sorry should have flared as political.

I see a lot of folks referring to Tay as a "blackmailer", or referring to his request for money as a bribe, or extortion. To be certain, Tay has issues...lots of issues. But I think the story is much more tragic than those words imply.

In this interview, Genevieve O'Reilly has this to say about Tay, and Mon's reaction to him:

But I would say that he feels loose. He feels a bit untethered, and from Mon’s perspective, she can see someone who’s fraying, someone who’s looking for false idols and someone who’s really drinking the gold, if you will. You can see him being seduced by the idea of who Davo Sculdun is, and that plays out in many ways. So she’s witnessing an unraveling of a friend, and that’s deeply unsettling.

In an interview with the podcast The Watch, Tony Gilroy describes Tay as "Fredo'ing out." For those who haven't seen the Godfather movies (spoilers!), Fredo is the older, naive, less gifted brother of main character, mob boss Michael Corleone. In Godfather Part II, Fredo goes against the Corleone family by helping Michael's enemies. When he does this, he doesn't realize he's helping Michael's enemies, he just thinks they are the other party in a deal Michael is putting together. But he does it because they promise him "something for [him]self," and Fredo is resentful of having to rely on his younger brother. For this betrayal, Michael has Fredo killed, which goes on to have lifelong effects on Michael's conscience.

I think these comments support my read of the situation, which is not that Tay is cynically trying to extort money from Mon, nor that his belief in the Rebellion is only so deep as how it affects his bottom line, but that Tay is spiraling out. From his perspective, he's not trying to blackmail Mon, rather he's swallowing his pride to beseech her for a lifeline.

The tragedy of Tay is that he doesn't understand the severity of the situation. He thinks he's helped her establish her Foundation to fund the Rebellion, which puts him at risk from the Empire. But he doesn't know Luthen. He doesn't realize that his financial troubles, his drinking, and then--the final nail in the coffin--his perilous interest in Davo Sculdun put him at risk of Luthen.

From Mon's perspective, Tay's situation is troubling, but she holds out hope that it is solvable. And initially, Luthen does as well. When they talk on the second night, Luthen's mollified that Mon will meet with Tay to come up with a number. He's not concerned that Tay will "blackmail" her again. His concern is if Tay will go to Davo, which Mon assures him Tay will not. Then day 3 comes, Tay's sloppy drunk early, talking to Mon about admiring and wanting to learn from Davo, maybe even get help from him, and, per Luthen, he's been pestering Davo all day. This troubles both of them more than the initial ask for money!

The problem is, Tay should know what Davo is, so this shows a profound failure of judgment. The number will never be enough not because Tay is a blackmailer who will blackmail again, but because he's crashing out, and money can't fix that. It will last them only as long as Tay's next failure in judgment that puts Mon (and by extension, Luthen) at risk. "People fail. That's our curse," says Luthen. Not the opprobrium due to a blackmailer, but a sad verdict rendered by someone who's job is to appraise people and things.

And this is why Mon drinks and dances. If Tay were blackmailing her with malicious intent, it would be easier. She could resent him for it, and feel relief that Luthen was going to take care of it. But that's not the case. Her lifelong friend came to her for help. She wanted to help him. But his situation is so bad, and the possible consequences so dangerous, that Luthen has taken it out of her hands, and there's nothing she can do about it. Nothing but drink and dance to keep from screaming.

i don't know if he'll stay a fascist til the end, or if he actually becomes a rebel to contrast with dedra (who is definitely dying an imperial no matter what), but i'm pretty sure bro is dying in the ghorman massacre. his own girlfriend's gonna get him killed.

No Spoliers please, still watching Season 1

Just finished watching "Nobody's Listening", and wow. I wished I watched it when it first came out, but I was burned from the sequels and tired of Star Wars honestly, but man, such a beautifully written show, and sadly very timely (with all these old people wanting power without caring about the citizenry, but we're not here for that).

Just wow.

"It’s so confusing isn’t it? So much going wrong, so much to say, and all of it happening so quickly.

The pace of oppression outstrips our ability to understand it. And that is the real trick of the Imperial thought machine. It's easier to hide behind 40 atrocities than a single incident."

Amazing 👏🏿

BY OPENING THIS THREAD YOU ARE SUBJECTING YOURSELF TO MAJOR SPOILERS FROM EPISODE 1. DISCUSSION OF ANY EPISODES AFTER EPISODE 1 SHOULD BE KEPT IN THEIR RESPECTIVE DISCUSSION THREADS.

PROCEED AT YOUR OWN RISK.

-

Hi all! This is the official discussion mega thread for episode 1 of season 2. All sub rules apply in this thread. As they are posted you will be able to navigate to discussion megathreads for the other episodes from links at the bottom of this post. Happy threading!

I have thought about this a lot, and I do not believe that Cinta Kaz killed the hostages in Episode 6. I want this post to be a go-to for those who agree that Cinta didn't kill them, and so I intend to gather as much evidence as I can - at least for a cursory view of the case.

What is the theory that Cinta killed the hostages?

The argument that Cinta killed the hostages on Aldhani goes like this.

Cinta is a stone-cold and fearless lady with a deep hatred of the Empire. As you all know, the Aldhani Heist crew captured several people along with Commandant Jayhold:

• Jayhold's wife, Roboda (just a lady)
• Jayhold's son, Leonart (a child)
• Two Imperial technicians

Vel and the rest of the crew left Cinta behind with the hostages. However, the hostages saw the crew's face. So, the argument goes, Cinta killed the hostages to "leave no witnesses." Supporters of the theory cite Cinta crying after leaving the security tower as evidence.

Vel's threat to Jayhold

Vel clearly communicates to Jayhold that if he cooperates, the hostages will not be harmed:

VEL: You're coming with us. Everyone else stays here. Your comms have been disabled. Ours are working. If you don't help us, your family will die. If you slow us down, if you stall, if you argue, if you play us in any way, they will die.

JAYHOLD: You'll kill us anyway.

VEL: 'Cause that's what you'd do, right? No. If we get what we came for, everyone walks away. But if we go down, you're right there with us.

That already complicates the theory that Cinta killed the hostages. So Vel is either a) lying and knows that Cinta will kill the hostages, b) saying what she thinks is true and isn't aware that Cinta intends to kill the hostages, or c) Vel is telling the truth and the hostages were not harmed.

Time check!

The last time we see the hostages is this shot of them watching the Rono freighter take off. Interestingly, Cinta is nowhere to be seen in these shots. However, we are supposed to believe that Cinta killed them right after this. But just a couple shots later, we see Cinta walking away from the dam. So, if the Cinta Killed the Hostages Theory is correct, the hostages must have been killed in the 2.5 minutes between this shot and this shot. But Cinta has apparently already left by the first shot, so... ???

No witnesses?

Another argument is that the hostages could have identified the crew. Firstly, there are many other people who got good looks at the crew and got off scot-free - and the ISB still got descriptions of the crew. But what's really important to understand is that visual descriptions don't help the ISB more than any other kind of evidence. A ton of Imperial troops down at the vault saw Vel. And yet Vel wasn't captured. Why? Because there are a billion other white blonde ladies with British accents in the Galaxy, and it isn't a whole lot to go on. (EDIT: Just want to add that plenty of other people saw Vel in the Vault, so that demonstrates that people seeing her face wouldn't matter in any case - no one would think of suspecting Vel Sartha, the unmarried Chandrillan lady who also happens to be Senator Mothma's cousin).

A rebuttal to this point is that it doesn't matter that a visual description wouldn't have mattered. The hostages heard the crews' names! But just watch this scene here. The hostages actually don't hear any of the crew's names. Not even once!

"When your gf is crazy but you're just a chill lady"

Let's return to our three options of what might have happened from before.

When Vel makes it clear that the Commandant's family will not be harmed if he cooperates, she is either a) lying and knows that Cinta will kill the hostages, b) saying what she thinks is true and isn't aware that Cinta intends to kill the hostages, or c) Vel is telling the truth and the hostages were not harmed.

However, in later episodes of Season 1 we clearly see she is totally cool with what has happened. That makes option b far less likely - if b were true, she would have been furious at Cinta. So that leaves us with a and c. Vel either was totally in on it, or she wasn't and nothing of the sort actually happened.

But option a just doesn't seem to fit her character. Would Vel really lie to the Commandant, knowing Cinta was about to butcher his whole family? Vel seems far more ideological than Cinta, and I don't think she would tolerate something so brutal. Thus, we are left with c.

The Ministry of Enlightenment has no notes

If the hostages were killed, wouldn't the Empire's propaganda network be bombarding the airwaves with anti-Rebel propaganda? They killed a mother and her child, for goodness sake! Have some moral indignation! But no, apparently they decided to let the best PR for the Empire in years just, uh, slip away.

Cinta isn't crying

And here it is, the coup de grace! Cinta isn't even crying when she's walking away from the dam. Even if she was, isn't she supposed to be a stone cold killer? What's all this sentimental hogwash?

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk and for indulging in my shameless Cinta/Vel/Rebellion appreciation. Have a great day. Peace out.

(EDIT: Tweaked slightly for grammar, typos, accuracy.)

(EDIT) A response to several counter-arguments

"The Empire doesn't want to be seen as incompetent, so didn't publicize the killing of the hostages"

The Empire would never cover up a "Rebel atrocity." if they really wanted to suppress news of the attack, they would just not broadcast it on the news. But instead, they acknowledge a Garrison is attacked and that there was a slaughter - why not mention the civilians killed by Rebel "terrorists"? People watching the news wouldn't think, "Oh!! Women and children were killed. That means the Empire is weak!" In fact, a Rebel massacre would serve as the perfect excuse for a show of strength. But they didn't get that good of a hand because the Aldhani rebels didn't give it to them.

"Vel wouldn't believe the hostages were killed"

Why not? Wouldn't Vel ask Cinta what happened? Wouldn't she be suspicious about what happened? Wouldn't she see it on the news? Wouldn't that be notable enough for the audience to see?

"How do you know the plan wasn't to kill all the men in the hangar / vault?"

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that there were people on Aldhani people who got a long, clear look at their faces, and despite that they were not captured.

"Context clues imply Cinta killed the hostages"

Such as...?

"Cinta couldn't let the hostages survive after getting such a clear look at Vel"

Finding a blonde white lady with a British accent in a Galaxy of billions of people? EZ.

I just realized upon a rewatch, that the song that Mon Mothma was dancing to at the wedding was the same song that is playing in the brothel as Cassian walks in, in the first episode of Season 1.

I would love to hear an uninterrupted, full version of it. Does anyone know if it exists?

In light of a bunch of youtube personalities weighing in on episode 3's attempted rape of Bix by an imperial officer saying that it was unrealistic because Darth Vader would not tolerate such unprofessional behavior in his military I'd like to point out an actual pattern of thought that emerged in Czarist Russia and later in Nazi Germany when government thugs would abuse the populace, "If only the Czar/Führer knew".

Due to the brainwashing of the populace and the cult of personality around the dictator, he could never be at fault for the abuses of his agents, and he would set them straight if he knew what they were doing in his name.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_cult_of_personality

The myth also gave rise to the concept behind the saying "If only the Führer knew": when the German people were dissatisfied with the way the country was being run, they blamed it on Nazi bigwigs but fell short of laying any blame on Hitler himself, instead exempting him from culpability. They believed that if Hitler knew what was happening, he would set things right. The Night of the Long Knives in 1934 – a murderous purge of Hitler's opponents inside the Nazi Party and in its paramilitary arm, the Sturmabteilung (SA), as well as numerous others – was presented to the public as Hitler preventing chaos by preemptively suppressing a coup attempt. This helped to reinforce Hitler's image as the protector of the German people.

Cassian says it right after he flies the TIE Avenger backwards into the wall.

Here's the thing: Petigar is a good man. He’s probably that guy who lives next door - a bit aloof but polite, good mannered, hardworking, and law-abiding. Maybe he even supports some charity; nothing fancy, just a small donation here and there. And most importantly, if your house were on fire he would risk his life to save you from the burning wreckage.

Because no selfish individual will risk their life for someone else's family in a hostage situation. It doesn’t matter if the family in question is high-ranking; if you make yourself noticeable in a hostage scenario, there’s a good chance you’ll be the first to die. And what good is dying for your personal gains?

Petigar's actions were entirely genuine. The rebels crossed 'his' moral line by holding a child at gunpoint, and he acted upon his better conscience.

And here’s where the horror truly kicks in:

A lot of people will rightly point out that Petigar was completely complicit in the cultural destruction and exploitation of the Aldhanis. This is true, and yet we already engage in similar activities today. We don't think about sweatshops and plantations run by child labor when we go about our daily lives. Heck, a good number of people here may even be working for the companies involved in these exploitations, managing projects, planning import/exports, contracts, or even human resource management.

Yet if we see a child actually in danger we WILL become enraged, and a good number of us will even risk our safety to help out (at least I hope so). This is not hypocritical. We just don't feel guilty when the threat is not direct.

If anything what the Empire is doing to the Aldhanis are alot less evil compared to what a lot of businesses are doing irl. If good people on Earth generally do not pause to think about this, Petigar surely has no reason to think about it as well.

I would also like to mention that this is how Gorn came to see the wrongdoings of the Empire - He was the one who actually conversed and met up with the locals, and he got to see the pain and suffering first hand (and yes, I am aware of his romantic relationship with a local person). Petigar, on the otherhand, does not see any of this. He only get to see numbers and reports, and there's no natural stimulation for him to think about the Aldhanis.

This is exactly how the society of "good imperial citizens" continue to support evil - we just don't think about what's not directly infront of us, and even if we do, only a few will act upon it (eg. I am drinking coffee right now), and this in a sense is a horror on its own.

I have seen so many posts in this subreddit about how people's favorite star wars scene is now a scene where a gestapo officer stands up to her fascist boyfriend's mom at dinner, and how weird is that? You can't help but cheer for Dedra when she puts Cyril's mom in her place!

I just wanted to remind everyone that this is exactly what Gilroy did with Dedra in season 1.

In season 1, we are introduced to Dedra at work in ways that make her likeable. Standing up to sexism in the workplace, making clever inferences and defending them, being a devoted employee and good boss to her underlings, etc. She's working in a boardroom, not getting her hands dirty, not interacting with our protagonists, so it's easy to almost root for her...

Then she shows up to personally overseas the torture of Bix, and it all comes crashing down. She's horrific, monstrous, cruel! And it hits harder because you did like her. You are forced to confront that the fascists can be nice people, but they are still fascists.

From the Cyril and Dedra meal scene, it's clear that Gilroy is trying to make sure the audience humanizes them again. Even though we've seen their atrocities at this point, we aren't being asked to think about them. He's got a mean mom! She stands up for her boyfriend! They are such an oddly cute couple! I'm sure the show will keep pushing that right up to the Ghorman massacre, and that scene will be brutal.

Kudos to the actors. It takes serious charisma to pull off teaching this very important lesson twice.